Mark Immelman — On Tour Mindset: What CBS Golf's Lead Analyst Sees in Elite Performers

[00:00:20] Seth Pepper Welcome to Unlimit Your Potential. I am the host, Seth Pepper, and I have a special treat conversation with someone that I've actually been on your show as well. That was a really exciting conversation. So I was looking forward to turning it the other way and maybe focus a little bit more on you as well. So Mark Immelman, and you know you've basically done it all. Everything from, I know that you were NCAA champion not just once but twice. Which is really significant for the audience that doesn't play golf because golf has one of the lowest winning percentages. So to do it twice is pretty significant. [00:01:10] Mark Immelman Well, quick backstory about me: I am from South Africa originally. Seth was kind enough to join my show, The On the Mark Golf Podcast, because my approach to sports is kind of holistic, and I am sure you figured that out. And golf is more than just the nuts and bolts and the swinging of the golf club and such. It's a real mental game. To your point, you brought fantastic insight which I was thankful for. But to the golf thing, yeah, you've got to have. I've heard it said a healthy relationship with failure if you want to play competitive golf, because you know. [00:01:48] Mark Immelman The great winners of our time will win, not even a quarter of the time. And for any other golfer, whoever's if you played, are making mistakes more often than not because golf is such a mercurial game. So it's part skill, part timing. A lot happens stance and it's funny because as a kid, I won prolifically, and then I went through a stage where I didn't. Then I came to college, and it kind of unlocked me. Coming to college the first year, I sort of found my way, and from there I felt like things accelerated. And my junior year was when I was probably the best. [00:02:33] Seth Pepper Is there anything you could speak to about unlocking? Because that's the 'unlimit your potential' element possibly. [00:02:40] Mark Immelman I love the way you put it too, unlimit your potential. The 'unlimiting your potential' thing to me, first off, is removing your own governor because we all do. And I will from the golf point of view. You can speak to the swimming. The governor on golfers is the fact that you fail so often, and then you play like you don't want to fail instead of playing just to be great. And when I was a young kid [00:03:16] Mark Immelman I played with a healthy fear of failure. And so I was always consistent, but I never won, but I'd more win because I outlasted people, if that makes sense. And so I guess when I unlimited my potential was when I got into contention, and then I didn't just play defensively and hope that the other people played worse. Then I started to find a way to play without fear. Play without concern for the result. Play with a carefree sort of a way or care enough to try hard, but care enough that you don't get wrapped up in the results. And this is what you talked to me about where when you broke the record, you looked up and you didn't even know what time you had swung, swum I believe it was. You broke the record and golf was kind of the same way for me. When I got into falling in love with the craft of it is when I started to enjoy it. And welcome the pressure. [00:04:14] Mark Immelman And then not play to fail anymore, I think was the big deal. [00:04:17] Seth Pepper When people are kind of identifying with a score, that's when you start to really restrict that unlimited element. Is there something that happens that you just call it the "effort switch"? You can fill in the blanks, right? [00:04:36] Mark Immelman I'll see where you're going. [00:04:37] Seth Pepper And so I was second in the nation twice, my sophomore year and my junior year. And then my senior year, when this was your last chance, this strange thing happened. My coach could see it in me, but I couldn't really see it in me. I thought second was pretty darn good, but he kept on pushing me because he was a world record holder. And he used to say, "Why are you apologizing for your greatness?" He'd say, "Why don't you just go take it? Why are you asking for permission?" And then that senior year, I just all of a sudden something came over me and it was just. [00:05:12] Seth Pepper F this, I am just going to go take it. [00:05:16] Mark Immelman That's a good question, Seth. I am not sure I ever had that moment that catalyst. I think maybe because when I won as a kid, I was just better than everyone else. But then you ascend to a different level, and then you know, the pool's deeper and everyone's equally as good, if not better. And you've got to find a way to win. I don't think I had a tangible moment. I would just say that I sort of grew up maybe it was maturity, and the maturity of looking at the thing pragmatically, as if to say, 'Well, look—you can either make this shot or you can't. The truth is, you've got to hit the next shot anyway.' [00:05:53] Mark Immelman So if you hit a good one or if you hit a bad one, the common denominator is there is another one. So as a result, I felt like it wasn't life and death to just do the shot that I was over. Because when I was a kid, I remember learning from Gary Player. [00:06:10] Mark Immelman His lessons were always laced with stuff that you had to think about. He gave one simple lesson, and that was, "you've got to hit every shot as if it's the last one you'll ever hit." As a younger golfer, I equated that with, "oh my gosh." But then when I became more mature, I looked at it with a mindset of going, "well if this was the last shot I was going to hit, I'd focus harder. I'd prepare for it better. I wouldn't go into it with a crappy attitude, and I'd let it fly. If this is the last golf shot I am going to hit, I am not going to be backing down. At least I hope I wouldn't." I guess that was this maturity of looking at a valuable statement like that? And just reframing it mentally a little bit. And that's sort of led to me playing not stupid aggressive, but just not defensive all the time. [00:07:04] Seth Pepper Commitment is a big part of most sports, if not all sports. Being committed to the shot is obviously really important in golf. Was there more to being able to let go of a bad shot and move into the next shot? [00:07:20] Mark Immelman It's like races, because golfers remember the bad more than they remember the good. I can vouch for that. We hear at the WM Phoenix Open when I am out there with the best of the best, and when they get off the golf course, they will think about the shots that they missed. This is the curious thing about golf because when you're learning the game, like any beginning golfer, you're going to see larger increments of improvement. I'll never always remember when I teach little kids, right? And they come for their first lesson and they'll hit a shot and they'll screw it up. That's okay. Some of the kids will run and pick up the ball and put it back down and hit it again. And then when they get the ball in the air, it's like an event and I'm excited about this. [00:08:08] Mark Immelman And I'm looking forward to doing that again. As golfers improve, the rates of increments or the increments of improvement begin to narrow. When you get to the elite level, you're not shaving strokes off your game; you're shaving tenths of strokes, quarters of strokes. Like if you save a quarter stroke a week in a four-round tournament, that's one stroke and that could be the difference between winning and losing. Now the golfer looks more at the mistakes that were made as opposed to the great shots that were hit. [00:08:39] Mark Immelman And I feel like the people that have a lot of longevity and the folks that aren't driven crazy by the game, they look at good and bad with the same mindset. And that to me is the biggest challenge because at any level of the game or in any sport, to me, winning isn't just doing well; winning is not making mistakes. But when you begin to realize that you know you don't have to be flawless to win. I guess in your sport you do because this is tens of seconds. But in golf, you can go through seventy-two holes in a tournament and make some mistakes as long as you don't let those mistakes proliferate and be the beginning of something bigger. It's the ability to your point to forget the bad to move ahead and to not necessarily forget—that's impossible to do. But I feel like once it's happened, you are like okay, that's done. I've got to now hit the next shot as if it's the most important shot in my life. [00:09:39] Seth Pepper Excellent. When you look now, you are an announcer. You've been a sports agent. [00:09:46] Mark Immelman Trying to find my groove. [00:09:49] Seth Pepper And then you were a D1 head coach as well. You've been a coach at the highest level of college, and then also you worked with high-level pros and continue to. You are just part of the environment of golf. Is there when you watch some of the greats? Whether it's someone like Gary Player, one of the winningest players of all time, or now with the Phoenix Open going on right now, is there something different about them? Do they just have this? Sometimes people will explain it as aura or maybe it's just a focus. Different ways of describing it. [00:10:32] Mark Immelman It varies with different players. When I've been around Tiger Woods, when he's on the golf course, he's in like a zen sort of state. But then he quickly clicks out of it, and then he goes in and out of this zone. This flow state, if you want to call it. And then someone like Rory McIlroy, you can see his focused but he's more exuberant about stuff. And he is not as in his lane as what a lot of golfers are, but that's what he does well. I guess. [00:11:06] Mark Immelman The real good ones understand exactly who they are. It's that 'know thyself' thing, and then you do that. But I feel like there is got to be at the highest level of the game. The talent pool is so great that you have to find a way to separate yourself. And so if you know what your personality is, everyone wants to be better than them. I am like well I am going to try and be like Scottie. You can't because you are not Scottie Scheffler for argument's six. So, I can't say that there is a commonality between all of them and how they approach it, but they certainly know who they are and they don't deviate from that. And then I would say, they have a nauseating ability to welcome the mundane. Like when it comes to working and practicing, they will do the most boring stuff for hours on end. Which takes a lot of discipline. [00:12:05] Mark Immelman From being at the highest level, these greats sacrifice a lot too. They do the fundamentals well and they do them consistently well. They all know that stuff; they know who they are, and then they make sacrifices. So I've sort of found my way to that answer. [00:12:21] Seth Pepper I remember Kobe; he said, 'I never get bored with the basics.' And that's the reason why he was the best during his generation. [00:12:35] Seth Pepper When you look at your relationship with your brother, because that's something that we share, is that my brother is also a national champion and he was the first. Older or younger? Is this a twist? [00:12:51] Seth Pepper I am the older brother. [00:12:52] Mark Immelman You are. I am the older brother too. [00:12:53] Seth Pepper Okay, okay. [00:12:55] Mark Immelman I love to think about the younger. [00:12:58] Seth Pepper Two know it alls right now. So with my brother. We started really late. That's kind of the story behind us. I started when I was fourteen, and in our sport, people start very young usually. And he started when he was seventeen, like learning how to swim. So for me, it was always the mental side of things that was going to be the way that we could improve quicker than others. And so that was kind of our X factor. Our relationship though is interesting because we're so different. [00:13:32] Seth Pepper We're complete opposites, like siblings can be. How did you find your relationship with your brother? Is he a lot different than you? Did you, as a coach, have to look at things differently? [00:13:49] Mark Immelman He is different to me. Trevor is pedantic about doing the right thing; he's almost militant in a way. If he knows something's going to work, it's like that thing where if one's good, two must be better. And he will work himself to the bone. Not that I didn't, but I would say I am a little bit more laissez faire with stuff. I am going to work hard, but there was more of a creative sort of a side to me, I guess for starters. He's just a super hard worker in terms of our manner. We're both fiercely competitive. [00:14:28] Mark Immelman But he gets a look in his eye that you can see. I had that now. Maybe my competitors would have told me different. But I just saw Trevor had this way about him that when he was in contention, he was going to find a way to win. If I won, it was because I was talented and I sort of outlasted someone. Trevor had an uncanny ability; if he had to make a putt on the final hole, he'd be that guy. Maybe he just rose to the moment. So that was a difference between us two. But in terms of being brothers, we're sort of the same. We sound the same, we look somewhat the same. He's nine years my junior. So when I was coaching him, I wouldn't say I found his currency in terms of the communication. I think if I taught him now that I'm a bit wiser in my craft as a coach. [00:15:24] Mark Immelman It may have been more productive. We were successful, but it may have been more productive because when I was teaching him, he was just a young, talented kid, and I was just telling him what to do kind of thing. There wasn't much of a give and take until he started winning at the highest level. Then I sort of more had to convince him about why stuff was worthwhile doing. It's sort of long-winded, but there's a difference between us, but in many respects I guess we're the same too. [00:15:51] Seth Pepper Did you, as the older brother, feel like you were blazing a trail? What ended up happening with my brother is that I think he got familiar with the journey quicker because he was experiencing it through me. Do you feel like you at least helped, if not sped up, the progress because here you are performing at the highest level? [00:16:15] Mark Immelman You'd have to ask Trevor for that one. I would think so because when I was playing junior golf, like when I was competitive, when I was sixteen five and six, he's seven. So he would come along to tournaments, and so he was exposed to everything younger. When he was a young kid learning to play, it would be like I started when I was age thirteen. It was me and my buddies, fourteen year olds with a five year old with us, and we didn't mollycoddle him. [00:16:49] Mark Immelman He we were babysitting for my mom over the summer, and it's not like we wanted to hang out with a five year old. So when he played golf with us, he had to keep up. And so, with necessity becoming the mother of invention, he just found a way to compete. So yeah, I would say maybe I did, but I think you'd get a more honest answer out of Trevor. [00:17:10] Seth Pepper No, that's fascinating. I remember hearing with NFL wide receivers that they're usually the second or third born. And you can imagine because they're always trying to keep up. So that's the resistance, that's the teacher. [00:17:25] Mark Immelman That was when Trevor and when Trevor was playing as a little tot with me and my friends, he obviously couldn't hit the ball as far as us. But he quickly figured out that the way he could compete in golf was on the shots that didn't take power. He spent hours on our club putting green and he'd be betting with the members and winning pocket money all the time. And he got sensational around the greens, on and around the greens. So much so that again Gary Player told my dad, "My dad said, so what do I do with this kid? Clearly he's good because Mister Player saw him and said, he's going to be great." And so Gary said, "Build a green in your garden," which my dad duly did. And Trevor would spend hours on end around that thing. And so you had these short game skills, the scoring stuff. And then when he became fourteen fifteen sixteen, he got stronger and longer. [00:18:18] Mark Immelman Recipe for big success. [00:18:21] Seth Pepper So that's what we're to the masters when he's were you in attendance? I would assume you were. What was that like? Did you see it coming? Did you know that this was possible or did this come out of nowhere? [00:18:34] Mark Immelman Seth, I wish I could call lottery numbers like I do golf performances because I'd be a lot better off than what I am. That week he played in Houston and played okay, but putted really poorly and missed the cuts. At that stage, we weren't working full time together because I was busy with college stuff, and he was playing on the PGA tour. I watched some footage on TV and saw what he was doing. He was seeing these coaches, and they were showing him all this technical data, and I knew he just wasn't focusing on. [00:19:15] Mark Immelman The requisite start lines. It was very much results driven. And so I said to my wife, we were driving up to Augusta, I am like, "I am going to tell Trevor what he's doing." And Tracy said to me, "Are you sure about this?" Because you don't want to upset the apple cart during a major championship week. You'd rather shut up and be right than say something and be wrong. That's old school wisdom there. So we pull into the house and we drive through the garage and I see his golf bag there. It's outside the kitchen door. And there's three different putters in there, which is not good if you're lining up The Masters round. And he comes to the door, I'm like, "How are you doing?" And he goes, "Fine." I'm like, "Three putters?" And he goes, "Yeah." And so I said, "I can help you." And he said, "Alright. Meet me at 9:00 a.m. on the green tomorrow morning." [00:20:13] Mark Immelman And so we did it, and he started. It started to take, and he started to get into the mindset he did. And he was making good putts, and more importantly, hitting quality putts. And the drill we were doing—I had a little plastic ball marker. I remember, it was still a young life ball marker—and we were just sticking it in the ground on what his intended start line was. And his only controllables were: Did I hit the ball solidly and did it go over my start line? And that was about three feet in front of him. And if he did, he had to say "yes" to himself. If he didn't, you'd say "no." And he started to hear a lot of "yeses." And so he came to the realization that you can hit a good putt and it not go in. [00:21:06] Mark Immelman So he goes up for the practice rounds Monday morning, and my dad's walking up the side of the fairway. He was watching us on the green, and he goes, 'So how'd it go?' Dad kept in a hot tin roof kind of thing. And I gave him the ball marker and I said, 'This is the reason why your son's going to win the Masters.' Before yeah. And my dad's like, 'Oh, are you serious?' He said, 'I am not if he does what he's supposed to.' I know he's hitting the ball well enough. He's always. He's never believed he can play here but I believe he can. And fast forward, the preparation's going well. There was a bit of a speed wobble on Wednesday afternoon, but it all ironed itself out. And the following morning, I had to go back to Columbus for a college thing. And I talk with Tracy; she was in Las Vegas on business. Tracy's my wife, and she's like, 'How'd it go?' And my response to her I'll never forget was, 'If he makes.' [00:22:04] Mark Immelman Just a nice ten footer early in the round. It's going to be playing sail on the first hole. He makes par. The second hole, he makes par. Third hole, he hits it to about fifteen feet above the hole, fast downhill, turning fast, and he hits this big curler that drops in the front door and makes birdie. He led from the start to the finish. [00:22:26] Seth Pepper So you mentioned a word earlier, believe. I mentioned it before that my coach believed in me, maybe even more than I believed in myself. [00:22:38] Mark Immelman Wait, isn't that crazy? How I've worked with so many elite athletes where the coach sees something that the players don't see. Why is that? Help me with the athlete mind, even though this is. I am the guest on your show. [00:23:01] Seth Pepper I think you are one step removed. And for me, working with all these top athletes from different walks of life, I will say this thing that sounds maybe a little bit strange, but I think you'll get it. I say, "I know that I am in the presence of greatness." And that sounds like something that might be far fetched, but it's almost like there is a radio frequency that they're tuned to. And I always say that this is two part. This is not a compliment. This is an observation. The second part is that you are willing to be great and do whatever it takes to get there, and I think that's what they spot: that willingness to strive for greatness, and that's not a common thing. Working with an NBA player, I'll ask him, "You know does Steph Curry does he look different?" [00:23:57] Seth Pepper And he's like, 'Yeah, there is a difference to him on the court. He just there is something about him that he's different.' You know, and just collected a lot of these stories. So you know why not? We have a radio station that we tune to in our car, and we know that it's going to be there. So why wouldn't a human being kind of have? [00:24:15] Mark Immelman I am a big believer in frequencies now. You are talking my language now. [00:24:20] Seth Pepper That's what I would say: there is just something different. Also, there is a nature to it where it's kind of almost self-torture as well. Like there is a level that you will just go to, how you described yourself, how you described your brother, that you are willing to go to just do whatever it calls for. [00:24:39] Mark Immelman Do you think I've turned the tables? I am hosting the podcast. Do you think there is a requisite amount of fall down seven times, get up eight? Yes. It's the willingness to come back to the practice. It's the willingness to take another step. It's the willingness to pick yourself up after you've had that mortifying loss or failure or whatever and go, 'Okay, I am going to lament this, but now it's onward.' There is a lot of that stuff. [00:25:14] Seth Pepper It's interesting because now I can talk about my brother a little bit. Going into the national championships, he wasn't a favorite; he was the dark horse. He qualified for the finals, so he's one of eight. He's in the outside lane. [00:25:31] Mark Immelman That's not a good place to be. [00:25:32] Seth Pepper They put the circle seeds, so on the outside definitely not expected to win. And this was the fastest, this ended up being the fastest heat ever. But right before myself, my coach especially, he knew how to push the button in my brother, which was your brother did this. You can do this. And so it was really simple. That's what you probably instilled in your brother was not just a belief, but a simplicity of go do this. This is who you are. And that's where when he wins, what's it like afterwards? Did it kind of click into place where it's like, 'Of course this happened.' I mean, of course this is amazing the experience, but also it didn't necessarily completely come out of nowhere. [00:26:17] Mark Immelman I don't know about that if you're talking about the Masters. I know Trevor for a while because he spoke of it. For a while, he didn't feel worthy of the green jacket. Because Masters champions to us are legends like Seve Ballesteros and Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer and Gary Player, and oh gosh, the list is endless. Tiger Woods, you know, these are legends of our game. And then they have that Tuesday evening dinner, which is the most select fraternity in golf. [00:26:52] Mark Immelman And Trevor describes it how you sit around this table with the people you idolized as a young person. And to be a part of that fraternity was like mind numbing. Now I am sure now that he's advanced in years and he's in his mid forties or whatever he is, now he feels like he's worthy. But originally it was a burden for him to bear. And I'll say this whereas I believed he could win it when he won it. To this day, it's surreal to me. [00:27:23] Seth Pepper Yeah, yeah. [00:27:25] Mark Immelman I knew he could do it. Then we pulled it off; it was incredible. Now look back at this and go, 'How the hell?' [00:27:33] Seth Pepper It was like that for my brother. It's hard to watch your brother compete. [00:27:38] Mark Immelman The worst thing in the world to be a fan or a family member of some high achiever. My oldest daughter, Izzy, is a really good golfer. She's talented, but she got to late kind of like you. Maybe I should get her to talk to you. And she has everything. She is like fallen out of heaven swinging a golf club, but she's sort of taking her lumps a little bit. And watching her play is my favorite thing in the world, and my least favorite thing in the world to do all in one breath. [00:28:08] Seth Pepper I still remember watching the race and it's four lengths, and I just remember he took the lead from the start, and then the second length he's still in the lead. And I am standing next to my dad, and I've been screaming and he's been screaming. But I now have to sit down because I am going to pass out. And I am yelling to my dad while I am sitting down, "If he's leading off that last wall, he's going to win." And it was a pass-out kind of moment where it was just like it was surreal. And still to this day, it feels like we shared the journey on some level. And you must feel some connection to the achievement. [00:28:49] Mark Immelman It's crazy. The whole thing, the loop that was tied for me was incredible because as a young golfer, strangely like when I was youngish, I had the regular golf heroes. But then when I learned something about the game, my hero became Bob Jones (Bobby Jones), which is kind of weird for most normal people. But I admired the statesman that he was, and he was well educated (Harvard and Georgia Tech and Emory), and then he was obviously a champion. Got the ticker tape parade in New York City after he won, completed what was the impregnable quadrilateral at the time their major, their grand slam. So I was a fan of Bob Jones. So I come over to college because I went to college where I was the coach and The Country Club of Columbus, the head professional there was a guy called Fred Haskins. Now this is back in the day. Now Fred Haskins worked for Stewart Maiden. [00:29:45] Mark Immelman Who was Bob Jones's coach, club pro? There was a weird sort of synergy there. Then I am in Georgia, where Jones was in Atlanta. Bob Jones founded the Masters tournament and many other clubs around there. It was all this kind of underpinning of this whole Masters thing. So it does feel like I was a part of it now. He went and wielded the golf clubs like a champion for seventy two holes. In a small way, I do feel like there was I was there. I was played a small role in it. [00:30:22] Seth Pepper You are maybe touching on this intentionally, or just take it where I want to take it. I had a conversation with Grant Waite who's a PGA Tour champion, and we both are really kind of geeks about, he's really into the mechanical, and then I am very into the mental. So we're always looking for patterns. "Unlimit your potential" originally was when I was six years old, and it just started with a sort of curiosity of what if you could just unlimit your potential, what would that look like? So that's always been my curiosity and I found that I was always looking at patterns. And so we were having this conversation and Grant said to me, "I think that the players that are have an element of fatalism." I had to go really look up that word but you know. [00:31:14] Seth Pepper It's already written that they actually handle winning better, and they also handle losing better. Would you say that there is an element to that as far as a connection to, if you want to call it synergy, it could be faith, it could be a team first kind of mindset. [00:31:33] Mark Immelman I am a man of faith. I firmly believe that faith plays a part in it. I believe that great performance happens at the intersection of good physicality, good mentality, good emotionality and good spirituality. When you have those four pillars jiving, that's when a person performs at their best. Because it's not like the physicality overdoes the emotionality or vice versa. But the whole thing for me falls under. [00:32:13] Mark Immelman The spirituality of it to be able to look at the thing and go, "Okay, well, the reality is it's just golf." It's like this shot means life and death to me. But like Scottie Scheffler does at the end of it, I was like, "Okay, well, it was just another golf tournament. It doesn't define me." Strangely Larry Mize Masters champion from 1987. I taught him for a while. He lived in Georgia, and so I would give him golf lessons. But I learned more about life from that man than anything else. And Larry once said to me, because I asked him, because every time he signs his autograph on a master's flag or any flag for that matter, he puts his name and then puts a Bible verse underneath it. And it takes time. Normally, you know athletes, it grinds my gears when they don't write out their name. They just scribble on here and it could be anybody. [00:33:10] Mark Immelman For some little kid who's been waiting all day long, but I am digressing. So Larry signs his name and then writes the whatever the Bible verse may be, John 3:16. That's called. So I said to him, "Larry, you got a cadre of folks waiting for you here," but he does it every single time. And so I am like, "Okay, I get it," but why? And he made a he gave me a response that kind of took me back. He said, "Winning the Masters is what I did. Winning the Masters is not who I am." And I felt like my life sort of took a bit of a turn, then when it was always about performance results, and I was sometimes driving myself to a mental early grave. You think you've got it all together but you really don't. But Larry's like, so you make a mistake, it's okay. I operate under grace. [00:34:07] Mark Immelman To your thing. I know Grant well. I can see why I would say fatalism because he's a New Zealander. Larry put it very succinctly where he goes, 'The achievements is what I did; they're not who I am.' [00:34:23] Seth Pepper Do you find that there is a way that you could make? I trust faith, believe, for the big, intangible tangibles. That's always for me. I have the three M's. The first 'm' is mechanical, the second 'm' is mental, so it's kind of mechanics of the mind. And then the third 'm' is going to be the magic. So non-denominational, just faith, trust, belief. What have you found? Is there anything that you could put your finger on that would help people in that third area because that's the mysterious area that I always like to explore a little bit. [00:35:04] Mark Immelman The faith aspect of it. [00:35:06] Seth Pepper Anything they want, whatever comes to mind. [00:35:13] Mark Immelman I am not a qualified pastor, so this is difficult. Here is how it is because I actually have another podcast called 'The Greater Call' that has become a labor of love for me. Labor of love is wrong because it's not labor; I actually enjoy doing it more than I do the golf show, which is globally popular. It's called the Greater Call because it's about these heroes of the faith that were called to something greater. And as I've done the research on all of these guys, every single one of them they weren't qualified but they were called. They weren't all like big resume glitterati and then they get picked for a job. These were ruffians of society more often than not that had a special gift. [00:36:00] Mark Immelman And then that gift was highlighted in them, and they became great kings or great warriors, or whatever the case might be. So I would say to you, 'You know what's inside.' It's easy to look outward and go, 'Gosh, this is impossible,' because most times it is. The fact that I am sitting here as an announcer for CBS Golf in the United States is way beyond the realms of possibility. It should not have happened, but it became a reality. What I am saying is, God doesn't qualify the called; God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called. I said that right? The second time, because if you are talented and you hook up with a great coach like Seth, like we were talking about. [00:36:55] Mark Immelman It's the coach, it's the guidance, it's whatever you want to call it. Just unlocks that special something that you have within that you kind of know, but you don't really know about it. And you don't have to cultivate it yourself. Me on there. You gave me the thumbs up. [00:37:10] Seth Pepper I just have to give a thumbs up. I just get excited. [00:37:26] Mark Immelman Would you want to wrap? You want to go on with it anymore? What do you think? [00:37:33] Seth Pepper How long do they usually give you? Do they give you any like. What do you think like. [00:37:46] Mark Immelman I would make that reservation and not get kicked out of the queue. [00:37:53] Seth Pepper Five or seven minutes more. Is that okay with you? Sure. [00:37:57] Mark Immelman The reservation was five thirty. I think it was right. Thank you for trying. How long is the show? [00:38:05] Seth Pepper This show? I don't know. It normally be about an hour kind of like what I do, but it could be anyway. One or two more. We need to be flexible. So the question I think that would be helpful after I was done with my sport. My identity, I didn't realize that I had built this identity of Seth the swimmer. And then when it ended, I don't think anything really prepares you for that unless you maybe have a mentor that is able to say, "This sport is not who I am; it's what I do." I didn't see it coming because I was just laser focused. The more I focus, the better I get. [00:38:50] Seth Pepper And then when it ended, I started having these debilitating panic attacks. [00:38:54] Seth Pepper Where the world was just kind of spinning, literally. And I was lucky enough to get into a program, kind of a group setting, that would coach me into understanding my fears and these anxieties where they came from. That can also happen with golf; the yips is somewhat similar as well. So that experience for me really was transformative. I took my time with it so I could really understand it. So to turn a weakness into a strength, that athlete in you. [00:39:25] Seth Pepper You doing the pivot that you've done as a player, as a coach, agent. Now with doing the highest level, I mean you and your brother are like the voice of golf. It seems like I see you guys everywhere. What was that pivot like for you? What would you say is. [00:39:45] Mark Immelman It was surprisingly easy. I'm a teacher deep down. I still teach. The golf instructor, as a college coach, I loved it all twenty one seasons or whatever it was. But towards the end, splitting time between the announcing and the college coaching, I felt like it was divided interests and that laser focus you talk about. Something was always going to suffer. And it became the college job because I felt like I had a voice finally when I joined CBS. [00:40:23] Mark Immelman And then, as an announcer, I'll be honest with you: as it compares to being a coach, you can never switch an athlete off. If you are a coach, like football coaches, they might be out of season right now, but they are still working as they plan for the next season. So it's never off. The beautiful thing about a TV show or a podcast six PM Eastern Time on Sunday. We're done. Then, it's not done because you live what happened and you reminisce and you take it with you. Then the next day is normally like a decompress ish, and then you start preparing for the next one. But a golfer man, I'd have guys playing in Europe calling me in all hours of the night. So I am still a teacher; I still give lessons, but the broadcast stuff is I feel like I have a voice now. [00:41:17] Seth Pepper And last question: Take off on my name, of course, called the pep talk. What would you recommend? I am a geek about all the tools. And you mentioned one that helped your brother possibly to win the Masters. What would be some tools that just come to mind? You could go through them quickly if you want. [00:41:40] Mark Immelman Like golf training aids. [00:41:41] Seth Pepper It could be golf, but I also think it probably relates to life on some level. Variability that's built into golf is way life is. [00:41:54] Mark Immelman I can give you golf stuff that's easy to use. If you just like we talk about being disciplined about fundamentals, just get yourself some alignment rods and at least know where you are going. If you are attempting to get to Flagstaff, Arizona, and you don't have a map or you don't turn on the GPS, you are not going to get there. And it's the same thing with whatever your goals are in life. So I would say get some alignment rods when you play golf. Get a lesson or two is always a good thing. It's good to have a mentor, someone to bounce ideas off. And then as far as life goes, I am a strong advocate of finding someone who loves you enough to give you the hard truth. Someone who's prepared to pat you on the back and then pat you a little lower if you're not doing the right thing. Whereas it's not nice to get that, the disciplining at times. [00:42:52] Mark Immelman That's where the champions are forged. Think about that. It's not all sunshine and lollipops when you are trying to achieve something great. Having someone there who's going to say 'boy' or 'no, not so much,' that's going to be, to me, one of the best training aids you can get. [00:43:10] Seth Pepper Perfect. This has been a true pleasure. I appreciate your time. Is there a place you would like to send people as far as both of your podcasts or any other information for people? [00:43:23] Mark Immelman Thank you. I'm on socials. It's @mark_immelman. Have a YouTube channel. It's my name. And then there's a website markimmelman.com so go check it out. You're going to find one of the two of us and I'm the more charming one, so find me. Thank you.